--- Log opened Tue Nov 28 08:47:53 2006 08:47 Av - It was brought to my attention that one of my ircops (_static_) may have been abusing his powers 08:48 Av - I take abuse very seriously here, and would like to get to the bottom of this immediately 08:48 Av - please let me know when you have some time to talk 08:49 Darkclaw - Hello, how did you hear of the situation? 08:51 Av - It's been mentioned by a few other admins to me 08:51 Av - so tell me what's going on? 08:52 Darkclaw - Considering the other admins have klined me requested by _static_, I am unsure if I can trust any opers. 08:54 Av - have other admins or other opers k-lined you? there's a difference 08:54 Darkclaw - I will get to that in a second 08:54 Av - and static is my oper directly, he answers to me and to me only. 08:54 Darkclaw - Yesterday morning, I went into #freebsdhelp and asked a valid question and automatically he banned me. I asked him why, he said that answer is on the Internet. I responded by saying that a lot of people ask questions that can be answered on the Internet. 08:55 Av - what was your question? 08:55 Darkclaw - it was a question about courier or dove IMAPD 08:56 Av - and he banned you just for asking a question? 08:57 Darkclaw - On my life, as soon as I asked it, the banned me with no reason 08:57 Av - hmmmmmmmm. 08:57 Av - hold on just one moment ok? 08:57 Darkclaw - okay 08:57 Av - I'm looking through my logs 08:59 Darkclaw - the thing is, that is just the beginning 09:01 Darkclaw - let me know when you want me to explain what happened after that 09:02 Av - please do 09:02 Av - the more you can tell me the better 09:04 Darkclaw - when I first asked him in private message why I got banned, he didn't reply so I did a /whois on him and joined the two channel he's on. It really bugged me why I got banned, I was thinking I did something wrong. The channels were #efnet and #altonbrown and in both of these channels, I asked, why did you ban me _static_? 09:04 Darkclaw - He banned me with a reason (This is not that channel) 09:04 Darkclaw - then a minute later he answers my question with what I described earlier, "The answer is on the Internet" 09:05 Darkclaw - I was a little upset as you can imagine being banned like that so I didn't know what to do 09:05 Av - Oh I'm sure 09:05 Av - I'd be pretty upset too 09:05 Av - did anything else happen? 09:06 Darkclaw - I made two channels to make myself feel better one of them made fun of the fact that he made a channel for Alton Brown (a cook) 09:06 Darkclaw - and the other one was a channel that said some channel operators are morons 09:07 Darkclaw - I don't remember if he messaged me about that but shortly afterwards I told my friends what happened and they joined his #altonbrown channel to see what is going on 09:08 Darkclaw - he messaged me back saying, "It was a bad ide bringing in drones to the channel" and I said drones, what drones, they are not drones 09:08 Darkclaw - that is when the madness began. He started using his "operator privledges" to start klinging me and my friends. He messaged me saying that he is going to prevent me going on IRC for two days until he feels content 09:09 Darkclaw - He didn't stop there, then he got other irc operators involved and told them to kline as well 09:09 Darkclaw - it was very bad 09:10 Darkclaw - I have a excerpt from the log file if you want to see 09:11 Av - WOW 09:11 Av sighs 09:11 Av - yes please 09:11 Av - show me the log 09:11 Darkclaw - [21:02:45]some drone message one sec 09:11 Darkclaw - [21:03:05]*** Banned drones/flooding (2006/11/27 13.18) 09:11 Darkclaw - [21:03:10]is from a couple of them 09:11 Darkclaw - [21:03:13]the rest is just banned 09:12 Av - ok so, I want to try and resolve this without causing you any more trouble, I'm really really sorry about that 09:12 Darkclaw - I missed a part before that 09:12 Av - so I just want to ask you a couple of questions, if that's ok? 09:12 Darkclaw - I think I've read most of the MOTDS and it clearly says that operators reserve the right to kill anyone at anytime 09:13 Darkclaw - He klined me from blackened.com but is it right he asked other people to kline me and my friends? 09:14 Darkclaw - If he didn't abuse his privledges then honestly I don't know 09:14 Av - he wouldn't have to ask other people as fasr as I know. If you're k-lined on one server, you get automatically klined on multiple servers 09:14 Darkclaw - Av each time I got killed, a person on that server did it 09:15 Av - ok 09:15 Av - so, a few questions if that's ok? 09:15 Darkclaw - [18:07:14] Closing Link: 70-33-60-66.clspco.adelphia.net (Killed (murdrface (make sure to email ircd@nac.net too))) 09:15 Darkclaw - sure 09:15 Av - this whole episode really started, because he kicked you from #FreeBSDHelp right? 09:15 Darkclaw - that is where it started, yes 09:16 Darkclaw - he banned me actually 09:16 Av - and it was because he banned you because you asked a question right? 09:16 Darkclaw - [09:15:58] * You were kicked from #FreeBSDHelp by Frigga (Banned) 09:16 Darkclaw - that is when it happened 09:16 Av - ok 09:17 Darkclaw - I don't mind that he banned me from #freebsdhelp but when he started klining me and getting other irc operators involved, that is when I wanted to inform the administrators of his actions 09:17 Av - so in my mind, this has grown way out of proportion to what happened. can I ask why you didn't read the documentation before asking the question? 09:17 Darkclaw - He assumed that I didn't read the documentation but I did. He didn't even give me the opportunity to say it 09:18 Av - did you try googling first? 09:18 Darkclaw - I honestly don't think he even read my questin. There was no activity in the channel and he said something like poop 09:19 Darkclaw - I asked my question and literally 2 seconds later he banned me 09:19 Av - did you try googling first? 09:19 Darkclaw - my question not a basic though, it was specific 09:19 Darkclaw - yeah, I always have a google screen open 09:20 Darkclaw - the things I am doing has little or not documentation 09:20 Darkclaw - I think I remember my question now 09:20 Darkclaw - I am pretty sure this is what I asked 09:20 Darkclaw - Does userdb in Courier same/similar to the way dovecot has? 09:21 Av - you asked if dovecot supported userdb for authentication 09:21 Darkclaw - yes, but the next question was a follow-up to that 09:21 Av - yo uwere kicked before he next question 09:21 Darkclaw - haha yes 09:22 Darkclaw - one thing is for him to ban me from a channel for asking a "dumb question" but when he started using his operator abilities, I feel he misused it 09:23 Av - ok so you accept that you should have been kicked for asking a dumb question, you're more bothered because he then proceeded to kline you because he thought you were harrassing him? 09:23 Darkclaw - if its his own irc server I'll say okay but when he asked other irc operators to get involved, its ridiclous 09:23 Av - I have no control over other servers 09:23 Darkclaw - I am saying from his perspective, my question was not dumb 09:23 Av - if they want to ban someone it's up to them 09:23 Darkclaw - he told them to do it 09:24 Av - hmmm sorry, but I thought your question was pretty dumb, considering a quick google search jsut answered it for me 09:24 Av - they didn't have to listen to him 09:24 Darkclaw - yes but that wasn't my real question 09:24 Av - but they did, and that's up to them 09:24 Av - then why didn't you ask your real question? 09:24 Darkclaw - because he banned me without giving me a chance to continue 09:24 Av - so you generally go into help channels, and ask really dumb questions before askign your "real" question? 09:24 Darkclaw - if you check the log, the ban was set a few seconds after I wrote one sentence 09:25 Darkclaw - I don't "go" into help channels, I am/was a regular in there 09:25 Av - ok let me rephrase 09:25 Av - so you generally sit in help channels, and ask really dumb questions before askign your "real" question? 09:25 Darkclaw - no, I don't type everything in one sentence before submitting it 09:25 Av - that seems like a fast way to get the boot 09:25 Darkclaw - I may start off describing something and then I continue in another sentence 09:26 Av - then why did you ask a dumb question at all? Really, I'm trying to help you here man but I just can't get my head around this fact. 09:26 Darkclaw - I have been on irc for 9 years and this is the first time I got banned for this 09:26 Darkclaw - Av it is not a dumb question. 09:26 Darkclaw - I put dumb question in quotes meaning that it is taken out of context 09:27 Av - it is a dumb question if a google search answers it pretty simply. "Does dovecot use userdb?" "yes" 09:27 Darkclaw - Are you saying that he didn't abuse his operator powers? It seems that you are focusing on the channel issue 09:27 Av - well i have to start at the bottom and work my way up 09:27 Av - ok so let's jsut say you asked a stupid question, got banned, ok whatever. Now on to the oper abuse 09:28 Darkclaw - It seems that you are not focusing on the real issue here because my problem is not with the channel but what he did with his operator status 09:28 Av - specifically, you're unhappy at being klined? 09:28 Av - or that other opers from other servers were involved? 09:29 Darkclaw - He used his operator privledges in-vain 09:29 Darkclaw - if you feel that he didn't, I respectfully understand 09:29 Darkclaw - I am happy it was brought to your attention 09:29 Av - no no hold on 09:29 Av - tell me what specificalyl you're unhappy with? 09:29 Av - I have to make a list and pass it up the chain 09:29 Av - abuse is bad 09:30 Av - and I won't have it on my server 09:30 Av - especailyl from a damned oper 09:30 Av - *especially 09:30 Darkclaw - all I can do is send you an email that I sent to the other administrators 09:30 Av - I'm looking at the kline logs right now 09:31 Darkclaw - apparently one of the emails I sent went directly to _static_ 09:31 Av - well that was pretty dumb too 09:31 Av - sorr man, i don't think i can help you at this point 09:31 Av - I'll just advise you to stay out of his way 09:31 Darkclaw - its okay :) I won't cross his path again 09:31 Av - if you have a problem with the other opers, email their admins 09:31 Av - and please 09:31 Av - please 09:32 Av - don't ask dumb questions, ok? 09:32 Darkclaw - I sent an email to several administrators a 09:32 Darkclaw - one of them said that they will remove his privledge from one of the servers 09:32 Darkclaw - it is a start 09:32 Darkclaw - I sent an email to several administrators a 09:32 Darkclaw - one of them said that they will remove his privledge from one of the servers 09:32 Darkclaw - it is a start 09:58 Darkclaw - the email I sent to ircabuse@corp.earthlink.net, is that its own level? 09:59 Av - yes 10:00 Darkclaw - why did you add _static_ as an irc operator? 10:01 Av - I'm not really sure what you're asking. Are you questioning my ability to choose good opers? Or are you suggesting that you'd be a better oper than him? or what? 10:01 Darkclaw - I am simply asking why you added him. I hope that wasn't a dumb question. 10:02 Av - because he asked me to 10:02 Darkclaw - he's some lucky guy 10:03 Darkclaw - I thought a person who has irc operator status has some type of obligation to follow the rules set by the administrator 10:03 Av - I've yet to see him break any 10:03 Darkclaw - wow 10:04 Darkclaw - a bit biased are't we? 10:04 Av - what rule did he break? 10:05 Darkclaw - to better answer your question, what rules did he follow? 10:05 Av - i asked you first 10:05 Darkclaw - how do I know what rules he broke without knowing the rules are? 10:05 Av - what rules do you think he broke? 10:06 Av - you seem to have a feeling for what the rules are, because you're suggesting he broken them 10:06 Darkclaw - I will answer that 10:10 Darkclaw - The fact there are no rules for IRC operators is the main problem. However, to answer your question, I will use an analogy. If a police officer, on his own time outside of his uniform, has a disagreement with someone, and he uses his privileges as a police officer to get him arrested, is that right? 10:10 Darkclaw - Whereas if he wasn't a police officer, the person would have not gone to jail 10:11 Darkclaw - the police officer used his biases and misused his privledges 10:11 Av - there are rules for IRC operators. why you think there aren't is beyond me, but they are in place. and being a police officer and an IRC operator are *very different things*. That would would even begin to compare the two concerns me greatly. 10:11 Darkclaw - in my situation, _static_ took his personal belief outside of the channel and used his channel operator status to kline me where I would have not been klined 10:12 Darkclaw - its the same exact thing 10:12 Darkclaw - if _static_ was not an irc operator, it wouldnt have gone past that 10:12 Darkclaw - he misused his privledge by having me and my friends klined not to mention on other servers 10:13 Av - it might have. personally I think k-lining someone for being stupid is perfectly acceptable. And clearly opers on toher servers feel the same way. 10:13 Av - *other 10:13 Darkclaw - well then your kline list should be full and its not because not everyone is an irc operator and not all of them misuse their privledges 10:14 Darkclaw - if your statement is true, then IRC EFNET will be empty since everyone is perfect 10:14 Darkclaw - no such thing as a dumb question, I am a teacher, and that statement gets me aggitated 10:14 Darkclaw - the fact that you are saying that makes me feel that you are immature 10:15 Av - not really. Most people can get by just fine. For example, you asked a stupid question. Your stupid question did not get you k-lined. Your subsequent stupidity however, did. 10:15 Darkclaw - my question has NOTHING to do with what happened with _static_ 10:15 Av - you had no need to follow static around, or get your "friends" involved 10:15 Darkclaw - you are biased and not the best person to get this situation resolved 10:15 Av - i'm the only person who can get this situation resolved 10:16 Darkclaw - with your mentality, it will not be resolved 10:16 Darkclaw - how can he learn to be a good irc operator when you have bad pretences? 10:16 Darkclaw - that you allow him to do these things and not reprimand him? 10:16 Av - like I said, I've yet to see him break a rule 10:17 Darkclaw - he misused his privledge, is that not a rule? 10:17 Darkclaw - well, you advocate kling for asking a question, thats the main problem 10:18 Av - he k-lined you for being an idiot. Why did you feel it was necessary to follow him into other channels just because you were banned from one? 10:18 Darkclaw - you are the server administrator so you can do whatever you want but just think that there are other people who have morals 10:18 Av - I don't advocate kline for one question 10:18 Av - that's a channel matter 10:18 Darkclaw - I didn't follow him in other channels to harass him 10:18 Darkclaw - I wanted to know why he banned me 10:18 Av - when you took it into multiple other channels, that became a server matter. and a kline was perfectly justified. 10:18 Darkclaw - what multiple channels? 10:19 Darkclaw - #efnet and #altonbrown? 10:19 Av - yes 10:19 Darkclaw - all I did was ask why he banned me? Does that constitute as abuse? 10:19 Av - you should have messaged him, and if he didn't answer you should have just shut up. 10:19 Darkclaw - ah-hah there you go 10:20 Darkclaw - that is exactly what I needed to know 10:20 Av - what? 10:20 Darkclaw - the "God" type mentality 10:20 Darkclaw - IRC Operators are above everyone else, eh? 10:20 Av - it's not a "God" mentality at all. *YOU* turned a channel matter into a server-wide matter. 10:21 Darkclaw - I don't see how I did because I did nothing with the server 10:21 Darkclaw - I did not spam, I did not flood, I didn't do anything like that 10:21 Av - when you take one matter and spread it over more than one channel, it's automatically a server-wide matter 10:21 Darkclaw - I didn't know that 10:21 Av - if it's contained in one single channel, then it's a channel matter 10:21 Av - Ignorance is no excuse 10:22 Darkclaw - I did a MOTD on all the irc servers, did not mention anything like that 10:22 Darkclaw - who is to say someone is ignorant when there is no way to find out until it has happened? 10:22 Darkclaw - even with your point, he still misused his privledge 10:23 Darkclaw - if he wasn't an irc operator, he wouldn't have klined me 10:23 Darkclaw - look at this! 10:24 Av - In that case he could have asked an ircoper to kline you, and someone probably would have 10:24 Darkclaw - I can disprove that 10:24 Darkclaw - It is the policy 10:24 Darkclaw - - of this server to abstain from involvement in channel 10:24 Darkclaw - - matters so please do not bother to ask.I 10:24 Darkclaw - what do you think about that? 10:25 Darkclaw - if he asked another irc operator, they would not be involved in the matter 10:25 Av - they would after you joined multiple channels 10:26 Darkclaw - multiple channels = #altonbrown #efnet? 10:26 Darkclaw - there were already irc operators in #efnet, none of them klined me 10:27 Av - multiple channels = more than one channel 10:27 Av - look, seriously, this is getting old. 10:27 Darkclaw - well I proved myself and I think somewhere you know I am too 10:27 Av - You're sill on the network, so frankly, I think you should be greatful for that 10:27 Av - not even in the slightest 10:28 Darkclaw - what a privledge, being on a chauvinistic network. 10:28 Darkclaw - being klined/dlined for asking "dumb" questions